Large 440 oz custom Lava Lamp Discussion - Comments wanted on heat test

[Roger Berger]

Hi

 

I just finished making a 54oz Absolut lava lamp and now I am ready for my next project.

To see it go to Youtube and search on

 

MrAlesisMan  absolut lava lamp

 

I have a 440 oz  4 foot tall glass flower vase and I am thinking of making a lava lamp out of it. 

I would like to start a discussion on this.

 

First of all since it is not Pyrex, I would like to know if anyone has built a lava lamp from non-Pyrex glass?  Any broken glass stories to tell?

 

Second - what is the size my lamp?  The glass is 4 feet tall, with my base it is 5 feet, with the stand I want to put it on it is 7 feet.  So how tall is it?  I want to say 7 feet..  The reason I want it to be 7 feet is the top.  I have not figured how to seal it.  Maybe with a plumbing plug of some sort that will not be pretty.  Thinking of using a special valve that will let air pressure in and out but not liquid.  I think it a good idea not to increase the pressure inside.

 

I have a decorative bucket for it so if it breaks no liquid will spill on the floor.  I just bought the first thing I could find and was not all that pleased.  When I got home I put the glass in the bucket on my desk.  It came within 2 inches of the ceiling.  The next day I came in the room and when I looked at it the first thing I said was  "Oh F$%k"  (and I am not a cussing man).  It is so stunning that it took the breath out of me.  The lines and color of the bucket and glass match.   So I really want to try and make it work.  Now I call it the F lamp (terrible name but I cannot get it out of my mind).

 

My plan is to use a LED dimmable spotlight as the light source and maybe a laser.  I want separate heat and light sources.   For heat I will use some sort of heating element.  I am thinking of using power resistors.  The good thing about them is I have a lot of control.  I would connect them to switches so I could increase/decrease the power in steps.  Like 25w, 50w, 75w, 100w, etc.   Maybe use thermostats to control the resistors.

 

I believe that if I put a 150 or 200w spotlight under the glass it would crack.  My 100w Grande bulb gets to 600F.  Using resistors I could spread them out over the bottom and up the sides to lessen thermal shock.

 

I wonder if there are small heating strips that I could wrap the sides with?  How about a heating strip up the back side?

 

Also I wonder about using an aquarium heater inside??  Or any heater inside??  Has anyone put a heater inside a lamp?  I do not want to drill a hole in the bottle.

 

Also how about a heater (any kind) wrapped around the bottle say 1/2 up the side covered with a band?  Has anyone seen a lava lamp with a band on it ?

 

HEAT TEST

This weekend I will do a heat test on the glass.  I will get a cheap hot plate and set it inside the bucket.  On top of the plate I will place some bricks (to prevent hot spots)  and on these bricks I will place a pot of water.  Inside this pot I will place the vase filled with water ( 3 1/2 gallons).   Before I do this I will paint some test spots on the vase so I can take temp readings (I cannot take readings off of reflective glass).   I will have about 2-4 inches of water (thus up the side of the glass).  As a further test I may let the water in the pot boil out so the lamp sits on a hot bottom so I do not have to keep refilling the pot.  I will use an extension cord that has a breaker in it.  Connected to this cord I will use a cord that has a GFI in it.  If the glass breaks the hot plate will be covered in water so a short will happen, unless I can find a pot that will hold 3 1/2 gallons.

 

How hot does the vase (ie water) need to be?  Can you give me bottom, mid and top temps in order for the wax to make it to the top?

I would like to run the heat test over night at some recommended temp.

 

I will be so sad if it fails this test, the vase was $50.00.  Any comments on the test?  Any recommended procedures to avoid thermal shock?

Anyone heard of a thermal potting compound?  It would be nice to pot the resistors in a compound that would form to the shape of the bottom to evenly spread out the heat.

 

I have a lot more questions but I will wait until after the heat test.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tim Gill]

Ok that is a massive project you will be undertaking - good luck.

I think you shouldn't worry about the heat that much - I think a grande 100w or 200w bulb or even a halagon bulb will be fine for heat as its a colloum.  I think you should keep it simple with the heat by just using a bulb instead of heating elements, LED's lazers etc.

The things you should focus on is what formula your going to be using for something this size and designing a base which can take the weight of the filled globe.

I don't have experience with non pirax globes but I guess to limit thermal shock you will have to increase the temp over time while its on to prevent this.

I have seen your video on the absolute lamp and your running it on a halogen bulb so that's why its over heating. - I would suggest just using a 45w golf ball bulb or 30 or 40w reflector - that should help.

[Autumn]

Do NOT use it if it is not made to stand pressure or high temperatures. I really hate you crush your dreams, but you need some sort of tempered glass to make a lava lamp out of. A quick and easy way to test the lamp is to run hot water on it from the tap, then run cold water on it. I am betting it will crack just from that. If not then you should continue with your other experiments.

This lamp sounds more suited to be a bubble lamp. Fill it up with water, put an air pump and some led's at the bottom and your set!

[Roger Berger]

Hi

Progress report

 

 

Reply by Tim Gill on Wednesday

  ...I think a grande 100w or 200w bulb or even a halagon bulb will be fine for heat as its a colloum.

I think a regular light bulb would break the glass.  I want to use my glass vase so I am thinking outside the box.  

... I think you should keep it simple with the heat by just using a bulb instead of heating elements, LED's lazers etc.

I was thinking of light not heat when I mentioned LED and lazer.  I am looking for a multi-color LED dimmable spotlight as a light source and use a goo that is white and flouresense .   I shined my lazer temp gauge through some of my lava lamps and it did nothing for me, so they are out.

I really think I will have to heat the glass up the sides and looking into doing that.  Unfortunately for me, thermodynamics was my worst subject in college.  Too bad the prof did not use lava lamps as examples.
So I will be spending a few days reading this

http://www.pottingsolutions.com

Especially under “Potting Hints” and I need to get a hand on this--> 

Btu-in/oF- ft

Also from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity

What is interesting is the chart.  On it is mineral oil.  And from Wiki on mineral oil:

“Veterinarian-grade mineral oil, an inexpensive source for mineral oil, is frequently used by amateur radio operators as coolant in RF dummy loads.”

One man’s coolant is another man’s heater

AND mineral oil is non-conductive !!   This means I could place a light in the oil.  I think I got my lamp.....  :).  Now where can I find vet mineral oil?

...  The things you should focus on is what formula your going to be using for something this size and designing a base which can take the weight of the filled globe.

I am thinking of using 2 grandes or 2 pounds of ooz.  Will look into this if I can get the heat solved.  I have the base solved,  the lamp is going to sit in a bucket ( the two look stunning together).  It will not be one piece.  It will be assembled in place and have to be taken apart to be moved.

....  I don't have experience with non pirax globes but I guess to limit thermal shock you will have to increase the temp over time while its on to prevent this.

This is what I am doing.  See below for my test results so far.

...   I have seen your video on the absolute lamp and your running it on a halogen bulb so that's why its over heating. - I would suggest just using a 45w golf ball bulb or 30 or 40w reflector - that should help.

I put in a regular 40w and it works fine.  The big surprise was the 40w was taller than the 50w halogen spot light.


----------------------------------

Reply by Marcel on Thursday

....    I tried to build a lavalamp with a flower vase like you want to use.

....    After a few minutes the glass broke and i had 40L water on the floor ;)

40L !!!   That is about 3 times the size of mine.  You did not say what heat source you used.   I wonder where I can get a vase that big ha ha.

...    If you want to build a long lasting custom lamp with a big size, you have to use Pyrex.

I figure this but I want to try anyway.  I am sure I cannot afford a 4 foot pyrex vase with curve lines if I could find one.

...Take a look on my Gallery, i have build much big lamps :) At this time i am Building a Monster Jet in the double size of the original Jet. My biggest Lamp was an 150cm tall tower.

How do I find your Gallery??


-----------------------------------------------------------
Reply by Autumn on Thursday

..... Do NOT use it if it is not made to stand pressure or high temperatures. I really hate you crush your dreams, but you need some sort of tempered glass to make a lava lamp out of. A quick and easy way to test the lamp is to run hot water on it from the tap, then run cold water on it. I am betting it will crack just from that. If not then you should continue with your other experiments.

Sorry I do not want to hold a $50 4 foot piece of glass under hot water.  My lamp will not be pressurized, I will use an air releasing valve at the top.  I will not use high temperatures.  But right now I do not know what temp but I hope under 200F.


....    This lamp sounds more suited to be a bubble lamp. Fill it up with water, put an air pump and some led's at the bottom and your set!

Do you have a links to an example of one?  I found out about mineral oil (see below) and maybe I could put an led projector lamp from Lava Lamp inside in the oil and have bubbles come from an air line.  The problem is the wire and air line showing.   I have a 4 foot 1/2 inch ID glass tube that could be used to send the wire and air down the center of the vase.  I will be giving this serious thought and I might go and buy another vase and work on this idea.

---------------------------------------------------------

I started my heat tests.

I filled my vase with water while on the floor then tried to lift it.  I then realized it was dangerous so I carefully poured the water into the toilet.  I set up a good hot plate (has a cast iron plate) on a stand in the bathtub.  On the hot plate I sat a metal trash can that holds about 10 gallons.  In this I placed a couple of 1x1 wood strips (so the glass would not sit on the metal).  I place the vase on the wood strips.  I poured 2 gallons of water in the vase.  And I poured 2 gallons in the can.

I have run 2 tests so far, each one for 5 hours.  My grande takes 4 hours so I figure 5 hours is not unreasonable.  Outside water is the water in the trash can.  Inside water is the water inside the vase taken 8 inches above the outside water line. 

Time        Heat setting        Temp            Temp
Hours                                   Outside        Inside
                                             Water            Water

0                    3                       70            70
1                    3                       94            84
2                    3                       98            92
3                    3                     107          101
4                    3                     111          107
5                    3                     112          108

0                    4                       73            76
1                    4                     101            86
2                    4                     111            100
3                    4                     119            109
4                    4                     121            114
5                    4                     124            118


The water goes up the outside of the vase 5 inches.  Tomorrow I will lower this level to 3 inches.  The water in the vase goes up about 2 feet.  Tomorrow I will fill the vase.  I do not know why I did not do this at the beginning.

I tested the temps of my 13 lamps after 6 hours of running and got temp readings of 115 to 140F.

I am thinking of running my tests up to 200F in the outside water.   What temp do I need at the top of my vase?  Not sure what I am to get out of these tests right now,  maybe nothing more than the setting on the heater.  I hope I can get 140F at the top.

I will continue the heat tests on the vase and if they pass (ie the vase does not break) then I will start some heat tests on mineral oil.  Does mineral oil smell?


Light Source

At the top of my list is a 2 cell Maglight flashlight.  I got one at HomeDepot for about $15.  I am very impressed with the light it puts out (very bright) and at 3 volts.  Now that I learned about mineral oil I am thinking of mounting the reflector and led bulb from the flashlight in the oil and shine it up the vase.  I only have 9 inches to place everything and I am going to try real hard to keep everything within 6 inches so the lines in the vase will match the lines of the bucket (the bucket is curved at the top)

[Jonas Clark-Elliott]

Put it simply: If you don't use Pyrex for a lamp that big, it's gonna crack. Pressure doesn't matter as much as temperature - and glass thickness. Vases are MUCH thinner for their volume than lava lamp bottles.

[Tim Gill]

Verry true - although I admire your testing, if I were you i would follow Marcel's example and get a glass blower to make you a thick pirex vase for the globe.

When your doing a project this size you can't afford to mess around and it pays to not cut corners and get things right the first time.

Also I think a led mag light is just not going to cut it - led's alone arnt that powerful compared to a tungsten bulb. I would recommend using a tungsten bulb but if you are considering LED's you will need lots of LED's to get the same lumins of that of a tungsten bulb and it will probably be more expensive.

LED clusters do give off heat so the more you use then that could be your heat source as well. but I think you have to ask yourself why you want to use LED's instead of the easier alternative of using a tungsten bulb.

Jonas Clark-Elliott said:

Put it simply: If you don't use Pyrex for a lamp that big, it's gonna crack. Pressure doesn't matter as much as temperature - and glass thickness. Vases are MUCH thinner for their volume than lava lamp bottles.

[Roger Berger]

UPDATE  - Temp tests successful and new ideas

 

Hello

 

Here are the last results for the last two heater settings

 

Time        Heat setting        Bottom             Mid                 Top
Hours                                   Water               Water             Water
                                             Temp                Water             Temp

0                      7                      78                 83                        81

1                      7                    141                 97                        87

2                      7                    153               109                        99

3                      7                    156               117                      104 

4                      7                    160               122                      108

5                      7                    160               123                      109

 

 

 

Time        Heat setting        Bottom             Mid                 Top
Hours                                   Water               Water             Water
                                             Temp                Water             Temp

0                      8                      70                 74                        72

1                      8                    151                 95                        84

2                      8                    160               112                        98

3                      8                    165               120                      105 

4                      8                    170               125                      110

5                      8                    174               128                      113

 

The temp of the glass at 2" from bottom at water line was about 20F lower that the water at the surface level in the center of the water. So my last temp for the inside fluid results are:

 

Inside temp at bottom = 154          Mid of base   = 128                Temp at top = 113

The temp on the last test increased 80 degrees the first hour

These temps are well over the temps needed, see the Grande test results below.

 

Grande test result

 

Time - hours                  Bottom                   Top

0                                       72                          77

1                                       88                          82

2                                       93                          93

3                                       98                        100

4                                    104                        106

5                                    109                        110

 

Now to answer questions and comments:

 

...Reply by Marcel 8 hours ago

 

...The Lunartube. Double sized viewable Glasstube for my Lunar. Pyrex bottle.

 

Pyrex bottle ??  Where did you find it.  As a bottle does it have a small narrow opening?

 

...And my Lavatube next to a Colossus and the Lunar:

 

I assume your Lavatube is the one in the middle with the white base?  I do not know the names of the other two.

I like the flow,  what is your wax?  And how about the glass size?

 

...And this was my First big Project (the 40L Lamp with the flower vase):

...Heat source were three 100W Bulbs :)

 

I assume that this is the one that broke.  Three 100 watt bulbs, why did you pick 300 watts?

 

...Because of your idea with the Maglite:

...The LED Maglites has arround 200 Lumen. A 100W Bulb has 1400 Lumen.

...Maybe you think the Maglite is bright, but Hold the Lamp under a bottle with wax and you will see that it is not as bright as ...an 100W bulb ;)

 

When I thought this I just had read about mineral oil.  Now I am going to set the glass in oil like it is in water now, and then heat the oil.  So I will be using an oil bath heater not lights to heat my lamp.

 

At first I was thinking of putting the light source in the oil.  

 

Then I thought that no way will any LED work in 170 degree oil.  Then I decided on starting with a 50w halogen in the oil to start with. That would heat up the oil and shine light at the same time.

Then I came up with the idea of setting the glass vase in a pyrex bowl filled with oil, with a 1" to 2" gap.  Then I will use a light and heater under the bowl.  That way I do not have to deal with oily wires and bulbs.

 

I will set the glass in the bowl similar to the way the glass vase is now in a bucket of water.  Then I will shine a light up through the bottom of the bowl into the glass vase,  ie two layers of glass with an inch of oil in between.

 

My next step is to get a bowl (not easy) and oil (gallons) and start installing lights and heat until I get in the right temp range whatever that is.  In the mean time I need to know more about wax.

============================

 

...Jonas Clark-Elliott 7 hours ago

... Put it simply: If you don't use Pyrex for a lamp that big, it's gonna crack. Pressure doesn't matter as much as ....temperature - and glass thickness. Vases are MUCH thinner for their volume than lava lamp bottles.

 

Maybe someday it will crack but no harm or damage will occur if it does because of my design (I am using a bucket).  I heated my vase to 170 degrees.

In practice the temp of the oil will be less than 170.

 

----------------------------------------------

...Tim Gill 5 hours ago

.....get a glass blower to make you a thick pirex vase for the globe.

I cannot even imagine spending this kind of money.  If I could afford a 4 foot custom blown pirex vase then I think I would be living somewhere different and not writing this.  I am classified as living in poverty.

 

...When your doing a project this size you can't afford to mess around and it pays to not cut corners and get things right the ...first time.

 

It is either a $50.00 piece of glass or nothing.  ie unless I cut corners I cannot do anything

 

...Also I think a led mag light is just not going to cut it - led's alone arnt that powerful compared to a tungsten bulb.

 

Agreed

 

...I would recommend using a tungsten bulb but if you are considering LED's you will need lots of LED's to get the same ...lumins of that of a tungsten bulb and it will probably be more expensive.
...LED clusters do give off heat so the more you use then that could be your heat source as well. but I think you have to ask ...yourself why you want to use LED's instead of the easier alternative of using a tungsten bulb.

 

Agreed, LEDs are out.  Now looking for a very strong light to be able to go through 2 layers of glass and one inch of mineral oil and 4 feet of water.  My 50w halogen has a very strong spot light.  So I going to keep my eyes open for strong spot lights.  Going to look in zenon bulbs next.

 

 

[...Jonas Clark-Elliott]

... Put it simply: If you don't use Pyrex for a lamp that big, it's gonna crack. Pressure doesn't matter as much as ....temperature - and glass thickness. Vases are MUCH thinner for their volume than lava lamp bottles.

[Tim Gill]

Bulb wise, having experience of discharge sources (zenon etc), although they are bight and powerful lamps when they are strike they cant be dimmed by reducing the power like tungsten sources can. - Therefor I suggest using something like a 1000w narrow beam par bulb- that way the heat can be controlled just by a electronic dimmer

I don't intend to shatter your hoped but to be honest but I don't think the project is going to work with the current budget and non pyrex globe etc. - You can't cut corners and you need to expect for more money to be spent then expected.

Also the wax / formular Marcel used was goo kit - check out hear for more info http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/magmatower10&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SE...

[karl roach]

Hi,  jut use your bulb and run your power supply thru the dimmer switch - that's what I do and it works beautifuly....

.k